Interview With My Father - Part 3

INTERVIEW OF CARL AND DOROTHY LIEPE
BY JOHN AND HELEN BRANIFF
JULY 5, 1980


(I mean the small bushes, do they spray them or what?)
Yes, you would have to have a duster or sprayer you know.

(I wonder how they dust them up here.  Where we are, I don’t think they dust those berries?)
Maybe they don’t dust them, that’s the reason they don’t ship them either. Most of the berries up your way are "Come pick your own". They wouldn’t be allowed to ship them in case there would be a worm in them. There is a lot of work to berries. Berries have to be trimmed and tied up and sprayed and dusted.  You have to like to pick. The Liepes in particular are excellent pickers.  I’m from the city and when I first started to pick they said don’t put anything in the box you wouldn’t put in your own mouth. That’s how I learned to be a good picker. If something falls in that bucket now when I’m picking I pick it out because even though I’m not going to eat those berries it is in the back of my mind.

(Did you pick all these?)
Yes, I picked them today

(Was there anything around like the typical German beer garden type thing with sausages and German food? Like a restaurant.)
Fairchild’s, at the Egg Harbor Fair.

(Tell us about the fair?)
I’m not sure when it started, around the eighteen hundreds I think.

(Did they close off the street?)
Where they make the monuments and the vaults. You had to pay to get in the fair.  They had it all fenced off. Alongside of the A & P that was all the Egg Harbor Fair. They had an immense poultry building where they make the monuments now.  The people put their best poultry in there. When Carl’s father went into the nursery business he always had a nursery display. That was interesting too how his dad got into the nursery business. He decided to put this hedge out front with Spruce trees up there. He had a lot left over so he lined them out and started selling them as Xmas trees. Then he started buying different other trees. That is’ how he got into the nursery business.

(Not these nature trees you see growing around here?)
No, it was the common Xmas tree you would buy, the Douglas fir, the Norway spruce, like that.  Then he started different kinds of trees. Then the people from Atlantic City started getting cars. People like Captain Young, who had the Million Dollar Pier, would drive out and they would put all these big trees in tubs on the pier.  In later years there were deliveries but way hack then when these were the rich people they came out in their touring cars.  Half a dozen baskets of fish with them, to hand around to the neighbors.  Those people had their own chauffeurs and house-boys. This was before the depression days.

(Your father then, wasn’t in this nursery business in Europe?)
That was my grandfather, he was a shoemaker. My father was a farmer, then in berries, then in the nursery.

(Where did your father go to school Carl?)
Pomona, except when he had a sister who lived in Egg Harbor opposite the A & P and then he stayed with her the one Winter in Egg Harbor and went to school there.

(Your father was born here?)
Yes, he was born across the street over here half a mile away. Carl was born, not in this house, but on this property. Carl had never moved from 1911 to 1980. Then his go-cart and the things his father made for him before he was born were still up in that attic. You can imagine moving. It cost us four hundred dollars to move and the moving van didn’t even go out onto the street. You can imagine the things we had to move.

(Your father started out as a truck farmer then?)
Yes, he started clearing out this upper portion when he was fourteen, chopping the stumps out and all, clearing the land in 1875.

(When they bought this, did they buy forty acres here or what?)
Yes, he bought the twenty acres first and then additional twenty acres.

(It was all woods at the time, I presume?)
Yes, it was all forest. Of course ire started on the far corner, that would be close to home at that time, from his folk’s home. I don’t think he bought the land, I don’t suppose he could have. I think the folks bought it for him and he started the clearing etc. I can remember when we would go over around Gravelly Run, he would tell me how he had pulled the logs from here over to that saw mill at Abbotts saw mill over there.

(At Gravelly Run?)
Yes, that was the closest saw mill and they would go through the woods to go over there.

(How would they get through the swamp?)
I suppose they went around it. They went miles out of their way to dodge the swamp. They went all the way around the race track, around the back.

(My, it must have taken them half a day to get there?)
Yes, it did.

(What did they do put them on a wagon?)
Yes, on a wagon, with a team of horses and go through the sand roads to the mill.

(What did he do, have it cut for lumber for himself?)
Oh yes, to build a house.

(Then he didn’t cut anymore?)
No, they only cut what they used.

(What did they do with the rest of the stuff, burn it?)
Well I suppose so. A lot of the pine, they cut that for lumber for additional buildings. The oak I guess they burned.

(I’m sure there were a lot of trees on the twenty acres?)
The woods that is back there now is still the original woods from him then.

(It was never cleared?)
No, it was never cleared.

(How much of it did he clear, about twenty acres between the two?)
It was twenty eight acres. It was all cleared by hand. He didn’t clear it all. The latter part of it, I can remember, he hired fellows to clear it.  They would clear land for twenty five dollars and acre. With an ax and a grubbing hoe.

(And cut it up too I suppose huh?)
Right, it was wintertime work. They might make two acres in the winter.

(That is a tough way to make twenty five dollars?)
Yes, but twenty five dollars went some place then too.

(At that time my grandfather was paying his bricklayers seventy five cents per day and fifty cents for the hod carriers. That’s not an hour either, that’s per day. That is not an eight hour day. That is from sun rise to sun set.)
My grandfather, as I said, was a shoemaker, when he came to the farm here he still made shoes. He used to make the shoes, take as many as he could carry, get on the train, go to Philadelphia, and sell them.

(Can you figure out how many miles it is to Gravelly Run from here?)
There is a saw mill must beyond that on the left going to Abbott’s funeral parlor, towards Somers Point. Back in there is a big sand wash where a couple of kids were drowned.

(On the Abbotts property, what is that creek there? Is it Gravelly Run?  There is a ship in there did you know that? The Night Hawk. I’ve stood on her deck but it is part of the bank today.  At low tide you can see the deck.  I went in there with the present owner. Do you think I can find that thing again now?  I couldn’t see it but I guess it was high tide when I looked again.  If you stand back you can see the shape of the ship. Of course the dirt and sand has come over the deck. The only thing left now is a little bit of the ribbing and some of the deck stays. He didn’t even know the boat was there.)

(Tell me more about this trip. How many miles is it. It must be about five or six miles at least?)
I imagine John, it would come out to close to ten miles the way they had to go.

(It would take them all day to make a round trip.)
Yes, it was a day’s trip.

(How far could a team like that go in a day with a load like that?)
I don’t know how far they could go but I know they went to market to Atlantic City from here and back. I guess that was a long fifteen miles too because it wasn’t straight down the White Horse Pike either. They said they used to cover the horses with burlap because of the mosquitos. They would just brush and the horses would be all blood. In the salt marshes.  That must have really been a task to go to market. They went over on a corduroy road originally.

(When you say corduroy do you mean metal?)
No, logs, logs laid side by side.

(That’s across what is now the Causeway?)
Yes, but there was no causeway then. It started in Pleasantville.  It was the "Old Turnpike" in Pleasantville. It went from Atlantic City to Pleasantville.

(Did the White Horse Pike exist to that point then?)
No it did not.

(How did you get there then?)
Well, it went to Absecon. They called it the County Road then.  That went as far as Absecon and from Absecon you would go up Shore Road to Pleasantville. You could take a sail boat to Brigantine. We were talking to a man who is a carpenter, his father was a carpenter too. He would go to Absecon on the train and take a sail boat to Brigantine with his carpenter tools. Absecon Bay you know.

(I’m surprised they didn’t have a train that would stop to pick up the produce and take it into Atlantic City to the people, like the milk trains that used to pick up the milk.)
No, it was a late afternoon train that started around four o’clock. I can remember Carl’s dad said he liked that way of shipping better than the truck. Some days the truck would be there at two p.m., the next day at three p.m. and the next day it might be twelve o’clock.  Well, you didn’t have your berries packed of course. It was up to the driver, up to the pick up. He always used to say, give me the day when l could hook up my horses and take it down to the train because that was prompt every day.

(I guess the Atlantic City Market wasn’t that big then?)
I think at that time if there would have been half a dozen or a dozen farmers it would be quite a few. There wasn’t that much in it then. Probably they were the closer farmers then than now. I suppose Pleasantville and Absecon were farms.

(Did you have that many farms in Pleasantville?)
I would imagine many years ago yes. For one you know, Starn’s Shop Rite -- well Starn was a farmer in Pleasantville, well Northfield actually. Where Mr. Big is, that was all Starn’s farm. They would take a load over and then coming back they would load up with cabbages and kelp and fish heads. That’s what they use for fertilizer.

(Did it have to be bought?)
Some of it was bought and some was traded, just glad to get rid of it.  My dad used to bring barrels of fish home. Not edible fish, heads and all.

(Did your father or grandfather do much trading do you know?)
No, not that I know of. I think grandfather sold his shoes for money and bought more leather to make more.

(How about during depression, did he do any trading then your father, when money was scarce?)
No, I don’t think so John.  As far as during depression, we ate just as well.

(You ate just as well, but you had to make money for your taxes?)
Well, the taxes were so little though as a matter of fact, in 1934 when we took over the farm, the forty acres, our taxes were sixty seven dollars.

(Yes, but don’t forget, in 1934 the average person in New York City was making six hundred dollars a year.)
But, we were selling a product to people with money. Not all the people lost their money. There were still a lot of wealthy people.  We were in the nursery business at that time. Really times weren’t great but we never knew it to be hard times.

(Did many people lose their farms during the depression?)
No, I don’t think they ever foreclosed.  You could go on owing taxes for years.  We paid our taxes once a year up until maybe ten years ago.

(But you paid it ahead?)
No, we paid it once a year and it was past due. Nothing was ever said they were glad to get the money. In those days another thing, when my dad was in the farming business, in the winter time any of the farmers who had teams and wagons would work on the roads, hauling gravel for the roads.  Of course that would come off their taxes.

(I think a lot of that went on didn’t it?)
Yes, it was more or less a barter you might say. Your labor for your taxes. That was a good system. In the wintertime you know the farmer wasn’t busy so he had plenty of time and he paid for his taxes that way.

(We used to get a lot of the farmers come in the wintertime and work in our tobacco sheds. Then the first time the ground got a little soft they were gone. You didn’t see them until the following fall.  You didn’t need them during the summer though because you were growing the product that lay in the warehouse.)
I understand that is what happens to the modular homes. This home was made out in Tine Grove Penna. The farmers into these modular home factories and they get all these parts and pieces made ahead in the winter when they don’t have much work. One of the men that worked on the house connected it there.

(You know, if you figure it out, they cut their stuff some way, you cut ninety or two hundred pieces running length and four pieces this length. They just keep stacking them up and they know whether or what plans they go into and there is nothing to it really?)
That is the reason they can sell a house like this at a more reasonable price than having a stock house

(You know, people on a farm, always by tradition, were better able to live than urban people.)
Well, we always have gardens even now and were looking forward to getting some chickens. When Paul was growing up he had a pig. It was a 4-H project.  Now he has two little boys growing up and he is anxious for them to do that sort of thing too. Back in 1935 and 1936 they had this "Live At Home" program. Carl’s people had gotten rid of the cows because they were so busy with the nursery business it didn’t pay them. There was no longer milk pickup etc. I had two step brothers from Philadelphia come and stay with us.  We had a cow and we still cultivated the nursery with the horse. They were young teenagers and they worked along with us. Just the fact that we had our own milk that we could fill up with and we made our own cottage cheese. It wasn’t a cow that gave a lot of milk, rich milk. It was a Holstein. You really didn’t need a lot of money.

(Tell me, in the nursery business, was it better to have a horse to cultivate or a tractor?)
Well, a horse would still be better but who could drive it? No one will walk behind a horse today.

(Why?)
They don’t know how. Because you have to drive the horse and wiggle the cultivator and all that at the same time. The older fellows that did work with us were older than Carl. Those days are gone. Anything today has to be on wheels with gasoline you know.  We used to feed a horse for fifteen dollars per month. You can’t feed a horse for fifteen dollars a week now. All winter long you had to feed your horse and you could put your tractor up for the winter. Of course they cost a lot of money too. We haven’t bought one for a long time now.

(Did you raise anything else besides chicken, pigs, and cows? Goats maybe?)
No, we didn’t have goats.

(Goats weren’t very popular down here were they?)
No they weren’t.

(I wonder why?)
Goats are not German.

(I understand they can be poisoned too by wild cherries very easily, and some other things?)
Yes, and even the horses can. It’s not the green leaves. It’s the dry leaves. You can eat the green leaves but the dry leaves become poisonous when they dry.

(Would that actually kill a goat?)
They say it will kill a horse, so I guess if it can kill a horse it can kill a goat too.

(How could you put a goat out in the field? How do you know what that stupid thing will eat?)
Maybe they are not so stupid.

(Will they eat it?)
More than likely not, no.

(That was my argument, they told me if you get a goat it will eat things you, you have to watch it. They are stupid.)
Most of the animals are not that stupid.

(No, I guess they know what they can eat huh?)
They do, better than people lots of times.

(How is it the deer can eat the tomato plant and if I eat it I die? Or do I?)
No, you won’t.

(It is a knife shaped plant right?)
Some of the knife shaped but not all the knife shaped

(It’s the same family as tobacco and rhubarb and all that right?)
Well, rhubarb doesn’t go into the knife shape.  Potatoes, Eggplant are knife shaped.

(They are all poisonous, those leaves aren’t they?)
So they say, I don’t know.  I never ate one.  I think their body structure is different. A deer doesn’t have the same organs or something. It has something to do with the Gall.

(In the early days was there a lot of German foods around in the stores do you know, like Leiderkrantz cheese or Limburger?)
Oh yes,

(Did you have regular German stores in Egg Harbor where you could buy that?)
There wasn’t much else.

(What stores did you have in those days?)
Well, they were all private stores. There was no chains or anything then.

(Do you know the names of some of them?)
Well, the meat market was Colby. Schewieners too had a meat market. They were all fresh killed.

(Where were they situated in Egg Harbor?)
Colby’s was where Ruth’s dress shop is on Philadelphia Avenue and Schewiener’s was on Cincinnati Avenue, just past where the News office is. Then there was Bock’s Hardware.

(Was that later on?)
That was still in the early thirties.

(Did that become Wimberg’s?)
No, where Wimberg’s are was the drug store. It was a patent drug store though not a prescription drug store. Wimberg’s had a drug store before a hardware store. It was a soda fountain, patent drug store. That is where you went to the ice cream parlor. The extra room in the back was the ice cream parlor. The drug store was where Ordilles is now. The one on the left not the one on the right, still is. It was Dr. Boysin and his sister. Dr. Boysin had his doctor’s office in the back and his sister was the druggist.


See Part 4